|
Post by eddieeddie on May 15, 2020 13:17:14 GMT -5
So there is a twitter debate going on about who was the better player: Reggie Miller or Scottie Pippen
I mean, Pippen has 67% and Miller has 20% so there is a decisive winner.
(With 13% just wanting to see the results)
What I'm mind-boggled with are how loud the Miller supporters are. All up in the replies resorting to stuff like Pip is overrated, Pip quit in a game, Pip had MJ, this is recency bias due to The Last Dance, Miller was a true #1, imagine how high Miller's 3FG% would be if he played with MJ etc etc.
The question was who is the better player
Pippen was a very good scorer, very good playmaker and an elite defender. Did he benefit from MJ? Sure but he also sacrificed because of MJ too in terms of individual stats. There are a lot of NBA Legends who were legitimately sidekicks. In 1993-1994 when MJ was playing baseball, Pippen balled out and was All-NBA 1st team, All-Defense 1st team, 3rd in MVP voting. The Bulls won 55 games and made the 2nd round pushing the Knicks with Ewing and the toughest defense in the NBA to 7 games. The idea that Pip is overrated is bananas to me because if anything he is underrated given he had less than 2 seasons to show what he could do if he was a true #1 and he showed in that short span that he was an easily better player than Miller. Pip almost certainly doesn't have 6 rings but if swapped places with Reggie in Indy, who knows how obscene his stats might be - and the team might have been even more successful given the added dimensions Pip would have brought to the table.
More clutch? Sure, Miller Better shooter? Obviously Miller
Better player? Any arguments for Miller are nonsense to me personally. I say this objectively as someone who has no real allegiance to either as a fan.
|
|
|
Post by doakley8 on May 15, 2020 13:31:19 GMT -5
I'd take Pippen's all around game on my team every time. Unless there was 1.8 seconds left then I'd go to Reggie.
I'll add..I didn't know Reggie had over 25,000 points. I would have guessed around 21K. But still, I'd take Pippen across the board.
|
|
|
Post by eddieeddie on May 15, 2020 16:50:08 GMT -5
Here are some of my favorite pro-Reggie arguments I'm reading from just one guy
Pip had one hot season and didn't do more without MJ, even when he played with Chuck/Hakeem
Reggie led his team to the finals 1X and conference finals 5X Pip doing 22-8-5 without MJ in 1994-1995 isn't that good Reggie did 50-40-90 and went further in 1994-1995 than Pip did
Reggie didn't face as much pressure Pip was going to miss the playoffs in 1995 until MJ came and saved him (which was a lie)
Pip shot 33% in the 2000 playoffs and 39% in the 1996 playoffs
Obviously ignoring rebounding, assists, steals, defense and success Pippen had with MJ is the only way a Pro-Miller case can even be made
|
|
|
Post by varsity on May 17, 2020 13:42:40 GMT -5
I'd take Pippen. Reggie may have had more success than Pippen did independently but those Pacers teams were a solid group with Mark Jackson, Rik Smits, the Davis Brothers, Derrick McKey, Chuck Persons, etc. Reggie was their star but he had a bunch of help including 2 HOF coaches in Larry Brown and Rick Carlisle. I'd take their talent over the Pippen-led Bulls in 94-95 anyday.
I do think Pippen is vastly overrated in terms of greatest players ever. But without question, he was a better facilitator, defender and rebounder than Miller. Reggie essentially only beats him in scoring (shooting).
|
|
|
Post by eddieeddie on May 18, 2020 10:56:06 GMT -5
An interesting argument, if you ask me, is who was the better player:
Pippen or Drexler
|
|
|
Post by doakley8 on May 18, 2020 11:03:09 GMT -5
I'd still take Pippen..maybe..
But Clyde is very underated..with 5.6 assists as a SG, as well as 6.1 rebounds
If Clyde had 3 more years in him and retired at 38 instead of 35
Also "underated" as far as top 10 greats..is Olajuwon. I always see him in 11-15 range..but I wouldn't be against him ahead of Shaq and in the 8-9 range.
|
|
|
Post by varsity on May 18, 2020 11:29:15 GMT -5
I'd probably take Drexler.
|
|
|
Post by eddieeddie on May 18, 2020 12:39:38 GMT -5
Also "underated" as far as top 10 greats..is Olajuwon. I always see him in 11-15 range..but I wouldn't be against him ahead of Shaq and in the 8-9 range.
I think Hakeem in today's NBA would be the perfect big man.
He had the size, length, athleticism you crave. An All-Time great on defense with his rebounding, rim protection and mobility. Additionally an offensive force with his low post moves, his passing and a deadly mid-range jumper (which was obviously more common back then than 3pt range - like Ewing, K. Malone, Duncan etc).
IF he came up in today's NBA, I could see him basically being Joel Embiid - just more durable, a better leader and locker room presence.
|
|
|
Post by eddieeddie on May 18, 2020 12:47:04 GMT -5
If anything, younger people watching The Last Dance should now have a greater appreciation for superstars of this era - not named Magic or Bird.
K. Malone Stockton Reggie Barkley Ewing Penny Payton Kemp Chris Mullin
I. Thomas Dumars (Basically a bunch of dudes who didn't win a ring - except for the latter two)
Also Rodman and Pippen for those who really only knew of MJ's dominance on the Bulls Horace Grant also got a ton of love. His solid career was certainly underrated.
Unless I missed it, Last Dance didn't talk about Hakeem or Drexler or the Rockets winning the titles in 1994 and 1995.
|
|
|
Post by doakley8 on May 18, 2020 13:01:43 GMT -5
I did forget just how close the in and out Game 5 winner could have been for Jordan. The double clutch bank 3 to win the finals would have been an epic story..but Scotties back and Kerr's jumper in game 6 will do.
and my gah..pass the ball Sam Perkins! lol if you watched last night you'll know..Sam kept gunning..I mean damn Kemps on in the post.
|
|
|
Post by eddieeddie on May 18, 2020 13:56:01 GMT -5
Too bad the Sonics pretty much dismantled themselves before MJ retired.
Would have liked to have seen what the Sonics could have done in 1998-1999 with Payton, Kemp, Hawkins, Schrempf, Polynice and the ageless wonder Dale Ellis. Granted that was the 2nd to last season Kemp was remotely effective in the NBA - 20.5ppg 9.2rpg w/ CLE - but he was way better than Vin Baker for that particular season.
|
|
|
Post by varsity on May 20, 2020 10:19:52 GMT -5
Clearly the Last Dance ruffled a few feathers.
We've seen Isiah Thomas speak out about it and Barkley has made comments but now Jerry Reinsdorf, Jim Stack (assistant GM to Krause) and Horace Grant are making their rounds disputing Jordan's statements. Reinsdorf disputes the claim he never spoke to Jordan about the 1999 season and potentially pursuing a 7th ring. Reinsdorf claims in a report to the KC Johnson of the NBCSports.com that Jordan was fully aware the team would not stay together because Phil Jackson had already rejected any shot to return. Reinsdorf say Phil Jackson told him throughout the season it would be his last due to being mentally exhausted, a failing marriage at the time and no longer able to work with Krause. Jim Stack backed the statement in another interview saying Phil manipulated the situation by making it seem like Krause was breaking up the team but he had already told everyone that regardless if Krause was there or not, he would not be back for those same reasons.
Grant was ESPN 1000 and took offense to Jordan manipulating what he deems as a "so-called documentary" by saying Jordan edited out a lot to make himself look better. Jordan apparently had the final say in what was to be included in the film and many of those moments when Jordan is given a tablet to respond were late footage Jordan requested to be added.
|
|
|
Post by doakley8 on May 20, 2020 10:33:13 GMT -5
Horace is going ride thss gravy train while he can. but he has some bitterness in him. So does Craig Hodges..but he's always been outspoken..to whoever would listen.
I like Horace but he was a 4th-ish option. You got 4 rings and played with 4 of the greatest of all time, and played for the GOAT..but make your rounds while you can.
|
|
|
Post by eddieeddie on May 20, 2020 11:45:39 GMT -5
Watching The Last Dance, when it comes to Horace Grant, all you'd really take away is MJ punked him around, Grant snitched to Sam Smith and that Grant got carried on the shoulders of the Magic teammates after eliminating the Bulls in the 1995 playoffs - which was more about fueling MJ to be great again versus anything positive about Grant.
I don't blame Grant for being overly bitter about how the Last Dance portrays him. Yeah the doc was mostly about MJ but they went into the background of Pippen, Rodman, Phil Jackson and even Kerr. Yet Horace got the Bill Wennington treatment in terms of air-time. He was basically the Dennis Rodman of the first three-peat but doesn't get remotely the same credit for it. You'd think he'd be a little more prevalent in the story.
1990-1991: 12.8ppg 8.4rpg 2.3apg 1.2spg 0.9bpg 54.7fg% 1991-1992: 14.2ppg 10.0rpg 2.7rpg 1.2apg 1.6bpg 57.8fg% 1992-1993: 13.2ppg 9.5rpg 2.6apg 1.2spg 1.2bpg 50.8fg% (All-Defense 2nd team) Offensively, he was the 3rd banana each year along with being their best frontcourt defender in an era where frontcourts were tougher and the playing style more physical.
For all the credit Phil Jackson's arrival gets and MJ for accepting the triangle and Pippen's growth in his game, these teams don't win titles without Grant. Seems like the documentary would rather praise guys like Paxson and Kerr for earning MJ's respect and hitting clutch wide open shots - because MJ deemed them worthy to be passed to in that moment - than the significant contributions of Grant.
|
|
|
Post by varsity on May 21, 2020 7:10:15 GMT -5
Yeah the doc was mostly about MJ but they went into the background of Pippen, Rodman, Phil Jackson and even Kerr. Yet Horace got the Bill Wennington treatment in terms of air-time. He was basically the Dennis Rodman of the first three-peat but doesn't get remotely the same credit for it. You'd think he'd be a little more prevalent in the story.
I think this is mostly the problem. The documentary was advertised being about the Bulls last championship season but it's basically a documentary seen through the eyes of Michael Jordan regarding that season (and the buildup to that season) and I think that is why players are speaking out. Add Stacey King now to the list. He's upset because he felt like it painted everyone, not named Michael Jordan, as being selfish or not as committed as he was. He took huge offense to how Jerry Krause was portrayed especially given Krause isn't here to defend himself. In all documentaries, you're going to ruffle some feathers. Otherwise it wouldn't be entertaining if some secrets weren't exposed. But I do think the makers let too much of the narrative get controlled by Jordan. Understandably he's the guy you want to know most about but no one really came out of the documentary looking good. Maybe Steve Kerr lol.
|
|